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View Poll Results: Do you like the new changes to melee classes and why?
Awesome, let me bash some more! 7 36.84%
Good, but it definitely needs a few changes. 10 52.63%
Horrible, whose idea was this? *Creates caster ... 2 10.53%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 2nd, 2012, 16:06   #1
Scarto
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Reflection on the warrior

My reflections on the warrior after BWE 1.

I played a hammer warrior again to especially compare a GW 1 Hammer Warrior to the GW 2 one.

First of all, the general handling of your character feels totally different. To me GW 2 felt like a new game.

These points I noticed and would like to comment on.

1. The game speed
They really sped up things. GW 2 is fast, the normal weapon hits are faster and most important the skills refresh is far faster.
This causes you to automatically smash buttons, simply because by the time you activated your third skill, skill 1 and 2 are active again. You can use skills all the time and normal combat is nonexistent. The two phases of a fight are gone: normal combat phase, skill phase.

Warrior skills are adrenaline based. In GW 1 I was investing and working to get my skills activated, so I was working towards a goal and unleashing my skills was an important event in a fight. In GW 2 not at all, since all the skills are lit nearly always, I could just hit any skill, without thinking about it afterwards. I know that there are different skills and different combination, which makes out the strategy in a fight, but everything is only skill based now. The normal combat phase is now nonexistent. I also liked this part playing as warrior and I’m dearly missing it.

Conclusion: I personally think that they went a bit too far in the other direction. GW 1 was slow skill wise, yes, but in GW 2 they went to, too fast. The faster a game gets, the more it turns into a game where you just smash buttons without time to plan and execute. There is no buildup and unleash, simply unleash, unleash, unleash, ....

On the other hand, I maybe felt like this because the game is new to me. If I played for a month I might say that the game speed is perfect. It will not change the fact that my skills do not feel that special anymore. Only my elite skill felt special, all the others not.

2. Different weapons
I found it awesome that I could just switch and combine weapons as I want. This has been implemented perfectly and the ability to also do damage at range is a huge, huge factor for me as warrior. I love this and it removes the old "Warriors are useless in pvp, since you just kite them" problem.
On the other hand due to the value loss of skills this great feature cannot really assert itself due to number 1. It is just another skill.
The difference between "range and melee" is great, just not "melee and melee".

It's like having a great dish in front of you but you can’t really enjoy it because you have to catch a train in 10 minutes.

I was also surprise that the weapon switching is so fast. It is clear that they want you as a single character to combine all the different weapon skills and effects. Earlier it used to be the hammer warrior knocks down and the sword warrior bleeds, now you can do both just by switching,

3. Interruption of skills
Can you still interrupt player skills especially the heals? I didn’t see this and noticed it after I had in different occasions loads of mobs hitting me and I could heal without any problems. I was actually hoping for the interrupt, nada.
Another loss in strategy is the fact that you can run and heal. Earlier it was a big issue for me when I knew that if I heal now I ll have to stop running. Do you chase after someone else who is nearly dead but you are also low on HP or do you play it safe and heal up and let him get away?

4. Targeting
Some people had problems with the new way of targeting. You can activate your skills without a target and if something is in front of you, you hit it otherwise you miss. I never had problems with this and actually liked it since the battles would be pro-active.

General conclusion

A lot is new and the game looks very good. I would prefer it though if they would tune the speed a tad down, because imo the increase in depth and strategy would be worth it. Slow the game down to somewhere between the GW 1 and current GW 2 speed.

From my experience the balancing in pvp looks good so far. I was expecting it to be worse. During my 1 vs 1 fights I nearly always had close fights, except versus caster, but I'm a hammer warrior so no surprise there. The 2h sword warrior has to be toned down though. The 2H sword skill + Frenzy is way overpowered. (see video below)

How did you guys experience the warrior? Maybe you even liked the faster game play; it can be so different from person to person. I am curious how you rate the melee gameplay.

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Old May 2nd, 2012, 18:01   #2
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I haven't played a warrior yet, having spent most of the previous BWE on my Guardian.

In PvE, I would generally go for Mace and whatever offhand was available at my current level. Between a 1H-sword and Mace, I find the latter to be more effective for a Guardian as it is generally a support class.

In WvW, I switch between a 2H-Sword for damage, and a Staff for support.

My problem actually comes from the animations of some of the 2H Sword skills. Not sure if its FPS or latency issues but at times in WvW, the animation is so slow that my opponent is beyond range before the skill even takes effect. I will really have to look into this in the next BWE but otherwise, I find the attack speeds for the Mace and 2H to be fine.

Will have to test out the Hammer in the next beta. I hear it's pretty slow?
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 20:47   #3
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I'm hesitant to form an opinion yet.

So far, it felt awkward to me, i was wiffing in the air way too much, looking stupid.
I do agree that I really don't like the skills on 1, which are basically glorified autoattacks.
What were they smoking thinking that pressing fanaticly for autoattacks is fun?

Aside from that I had trouble with the action. I lagged a lot on crowded areas of WvW, ending up dead when the lag ended. Also keeping track of the target with all the jumps and dodges takes time to get used too.

I'm not sure if i like the changes. In a way, they rewards skillfull play, and that is ok. But I'm afraid that in the end it becomes a button smashing game instead of a tactical game.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 10:28   #4
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Awesome writeup Scarto.

I played as a Warrior through the BWE and had a mixed experience.

On one hand I liked the fast-pace action, what I often found in GW was unless you were facing a very hard enemy you wouldn't have enough time to build up the Adrenaline needed to use all your attack skills before the enemy died. This way you can go into an encounter fully charged and ready to combo your attack skills in the preferred way.

I did find that the warrior was too squishy to go toe-to-toe with an enemy outside of the early area. I understand that the mechancis require you to move around dodge but then you're out of melee range for a lot of the fight, where is the insentive to not just take enemies out using the rifle and longbow?

In the end I was only using melee weapons to unlock the skills, thinking that after I had everything available I would just use the ranged weapons. I didn't have a look at the damage differences between the skills and weapons though so maybe with the melee you have to balance the extra damage vs extra danger.

The other problem with melee was the madness that is multiple peple attacking one foe. As soon as there are even two melee players involved you can't see the enemy or attacks for all the animation and effects. Let alone adding more players to the mix! I came upon an encounter with Wurms that I put in the screenshots. It was carnage and in the end I switched to the bow and was just putting AoE down.

That further leads me on to the issue of being a bit squishy. The action is so fast and frantic that if you do get downed it is highly unlikely that anyone is coming into melee range to get you up. Sure you can use the skills but more often than not you'll get defeated incredibly fast. This is certainly true to enemies that deal AoE damage.

The feeling I am getting is the strengths of the casters and ranged attackers vastly outweighs the need for melee. This means that it only gets played because the player wants the variety, not because it is the most effective method.

It is still an interesting profession to be sure. I think that it may be the case it becomes a bit easier (for me at least) with the trait lines that could have an improvement on the different ways people play the class. I was looking at the Tactics trait and it has a lot to buff and support the team rather than focusing on the Warrior as an individual. I could certainly see myself running a Longbow Warrior with banners to support Allies.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 12:55   #5
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I went for option two.

When I first rolled out into the wayfarer's foothills, I was running around, sword and board traditional style. And after unlocking stuff for the sword i mixed it up with maces, axes etc. until eventually i had all the weapon skills (barring under water stuff) unlocked. I quickly discovered that using a bow or a rifle was much MUCH better for my health and enemy management than going in hand to hand. I died, a lot, when i was using melee weapons to start with. Still getting used to the dodge function and not being able to weapon swap hampered survivability for me. So much so that I ran around mainly with my rifle because it felt so much more controlled. The bow i wasn't so fond of, but that's probably because the bow is more AoE focussed and would work better in groups, while the rifle is very much single target. I discovered early on that my utility skills, although picked for melee combat (bull's charge at first then frenzy later) were very handy even in the hands of a rifleman. Being able to control your opponent became just as important as being able to avoid the attacks. Once weapon swapping was thrown into the mix, I felt a lot more confident to engage foes in melee combat, because if things got hairy really, I could more often than not switch out and keep them at a distance to finish them or to wait out the CD on my heal.

For melee weapons, I was hard pressed to make a choice. I loved pretty much all the weapon combinations for their own merits... except Shield. Never got much use out of that, but that could be because 'defensive' isn't really in my playstyle. Greatsword eventually became my top choice followed by sword/mace. The movement granted by Greatsword was phenomenal, both for getting in and out of combat. Whirling blade in, Hundred Blades some faces, if things started hitting you, dodge around or use rush to get out, if not keep slashing. For single target, Sword/mace offered enough output, movement and control to really harass players and mobs alike, without tying yourself down to a specific role.

What I'd see as melee's major problem so far is visibility. Everything is fine and dandy until it all goes WhizzBangCrack around you and you can't see a damned thing for all the pretty pretty particles. Granted, this was more of an issue in parties larger than 5 or so, but it wouldn't hurt to town down those effects more than they already have. Or maybe even have an option for show only particle effects from foes and party members. Everyone else's AoE's etc. are stripped to nothing but the circles and casting animations.

When I rolled a guardian, I again came across the difficulty of being bound to either ranged or melee until level 7, and again ranged won out. The staff, though cumbersome against single targets was more effective at keeping me alive and my enemies dead than any of the melee weapons i came across, which is a shame really. The mace and focus combo wasn't too bad mind you, but i felt i had to find my feet all over again and with the charr area feeling a little untuned, i left it at that and went back to the warrior.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 14:37   #6
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I can only confirm that I also ended up mostly using the gun in PVE to thin out mobs while they run to me, I would melee in close quarters and if things looked bad I would be kiting with my gun again.

It also bothered me abit that I couldnt stand my ground as warrior against mobs, but on the other hand our dmg output is quite high.

I saw a video of a sword warrior showing how you should fight against boss mobs as warrior. He basically went in, 2 hits, moved out, mob would hit and miss and then he would move in again. It appears that even as warrior you can not soak up damage; we have to dodge it.

I compared the PVE damage between rifle and melee weapons and it is about 50%. If I need 60 seconds to melee a mob I would need 90 seconds to kill it using my gun. I found it balanced.

Only in a group of at least 3 members and upwards I found myself meleeing all out, because either the mobs died faster or you would share the damage.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 16:03   #7
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It is interesting about the Warrior and dodging/movement. I wonder if with the additional skills or Shield combo it would stand up to a bit more 'tanking'. I know that they have wanted to remove that ability but I'm wondering if a Thief can jump into a mop and kill one and then has to evade is this similar to the tactics we'll end up employing with the Warrior?

Could that mean that 'solo Warriors' with no support are better to take the Defense Trait line?
Quote:
Thick Skin - Extra armor when health is above 90%.
Adrenal Health - Regenerate health based on adrenaline level.
Armored Attack - 10% of toughness is converted to power.
Then again it seems the Strength ones are supporting the Dodge and Move mentality:

Quote:
Reckless Dodge - Damage foes at the end of a dodge roll.
Building Momentum - Using a burst skill (F1) restores endurance.
Stick and Move - Damage bonus when endurance is not full
Looking at the other Traits;
Arms seems more for Rifle and Longbow usage; Crits and Precision.
Tactics for team buffs and support.
Discipline for skilled Warriors tying down a build.

I saw a PvP video I think it was and weapon swapping seems to be a big role to how you play a Warrior. Seems we all have to re-learn how to play now! The ability to mix up to 10 attack skills even in melee seems to bring a lot more potential for strategy.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 12:28   #8
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Originally Posted by bsoltan View Post
It is interesting about the Warrior and dodging/movement. I wonder if with the additional skills or Shield combo it would stand up to a bit more 'tanking'. I know that they have wanted to remove that ability but I'm wondering if a Thief can jump into a mop and kill one and then has to evade is this similar to the tactics we'll end up employing with the Warrior?
Yes, this is the case. In a podcast developers mentioned that dodging is a game changing new feature, since they want the players to be more active in the fights as in actively evading mob damage. This clearly applies to all classes as we can not tank as you would classically expect from a warrior class. You hit it on the spot, "we will have to re-learn how to play a warrior".

The shield is mostly used in pvp just to close the distance to a character like a caster or ranger. Blocking for 3 seconds in pve, I don't know if it is helpfull. The stun on the shield is nice, therefor I also like the the mace-shield combination as an alternative to my usual 2H Stomper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoltan View Post
Could that mean that 'solo Warriors' with no support are better to take the Defense Trait line?
PvE solo warriors will be forced to take a mix of offensive and defensive skills and traits, otherwise I don't see them killing small groups of mobs which you nearly always have in personal story instances. This must also be the reason why I ended up kiting more and more, while exploring solo from level 10 onwards.

The Defense Trait line is solid. It has major traits which you can take on top of the ones you mentioned which you will get anyway:

Code:
Shrug it Off
    Endure Pain at 25% health. 

Embrace the Pain    
    Gain adrenaline when hit. 
  
Turtle's Defense
        Gain +200 toughness when crippled, stunned, immobilized or frozen. 
        
Vigorous Return
    Increased health on rally. ("Currently when a player rallies they get 25% health" )
This trait line will clearly be viable for whenever you want to beef up your warrior. I have to admit during beta I went for a more offensive build. The next BWE I ll look more into this trait, actually I ll just build an all out defensive warrior (with the Tactics trait line too) resulting in a warrior with max HP and max Toughness.

In general in PvE I think you ll just last a tad longer but it still won't be enough to soak up damage, since they want you to dodge as noted above.

In PvP, definately in WvW I think the warrior has the tools to be a decent supportive character, since you can take the role of a beefy rezzer, light group healer using the horn and/ or buffing members with banners (Im not a great fan of banners though since GW 2 want you to move around alot. I find only the "rezzing" banner interesting).

Damage wise you'll have to go with either the rifle or shortbow. Since your damage output won't be that high you only support in dealing damage and should always have an oversight of the battlefield.
There are a few traits supporting the use of a range weapon which can be looked into if you want to increase your range damage.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 13:05   #9
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Originally Posted by Scarto View Post
In PvP, definately in WvW I think the warrior has the tools to be a decent supportive character, since you can take the role of a beefy rezzer, light group healer using the horn and/ or buffing members with banners (Im not a great fan of banners though since GW 2 want you to move around alot. I find only the "rezzing" banner interesting).

Damage wise you'll have to go with either the rifle or shortbow. Since your damage output won't be that high you only support in dealing damage and should always have an oversight of the battlefield.
There are a few traits supporting the use of a range weapon which can be looked into if you want to increase your range damage.
In PvP I don't want my war to be defensively supportive by buffing people and pooping out minor group healing.

I want to be offensively supportive by getting up close to key targets and ripping thier face off in a cloud burst of frenzy. Bulls striking someone pushing for my backline, keeping a midline knock locked, shutting down a rez with a hammer bash, killing killing killing...

Basically being supportive by good positioning and priority target take down whilst being in MELEE range whacking at stuff and wreaking havoc in the thick of it... not using some bow / rifle at range which should be what my ranger teammate would excel at.

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Old May 9th, 2012, 13:19   #10
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Well. The benefit of the GW2 Warrior is you can do all of those things (by weapon swapping), not just one of them.



edit; Except of course you'd use Traits for particular roles.

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Old May 9th, 2012, 13:22   #11
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I was pointing out that the traits allow you to also build a defensive variation. Also consider that we are using heavy armor. Some classes will just not be viable to take such a role. We all know there are x-variations for a warrior to be offensive, that wasn't the point.


@bsoltan
I at last found the video where you can see how this warrior is meleeing and evading the mob shots. This player is skilled in his playing style, that much is clear. From 3:00 onwards.

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Old May 9th, 2012, 15:49   #12
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I love that video!

I find the large veteran monsters like that one (ogre?) are my favorite so far. They're just slow enough that you can pretty easily kite their attacks or dodge if you didn't recognize it early enough. I play a different class, but that core mechanic of player movement seems to apply to all of them.

My absolute favorite is being able to use ranger's 1h sword's #2 & #3 skills as alternate dodge options, essentially giving yourself access to 4 dodges instead of 2... which brings up the question. With a full endurance bar, is 2 dodges the most you can do in a row on other classes also? I thought it was, but I realize now that was just an assumption...
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Old June 12th, 2012, 00:13   #13
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Warrior feedback from BWE2. Good solid profession. Each weapon has its own style but the warrior is solid if you like straightforward combat.

My favourite weapon is by far the riffle because you have a lot of control and panic buttons against difficult opponents. It combines well with an axe (for swing speed, AoE, and ranged cripple) and horn (speed boost and defensive debuff). So it's easy to cripple from far way, to close in or to kite away. You're in control.

I have not fully unlocked the 2H sword but (on paper) it looks like an excellent choice as well.
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Old August 13th, 2012, 15:24   #14
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So I am trying to build a tank for survivability for support in dungeons. I played one a little bit, but not nearly enough during the BWE's. I was looking at a traditional sword/shield build for tanking and spanking, with a rifle as my alt weapon for the cripple and ranged ability.

I am looking at 30/30/10 Defense/Tactics/Discipline, focusing on shouts and adreniline recharging. I'm sure my DPS will be lacking, but I should be able to soak up some damage and support my mates. I wish there was a way to dual spec.....lol. Too early to ask?

This is the build I am looking at for now on my Asura Warrior, Buff Maximus.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fIQQ...qs6KVB4SPIDt0A

Any thoughts, ideas........?
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Old August 13th, 2012, 22:13   #15
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Neat ideas! I haven't tried warrior at all yet, so this is just theorycrafting from me, but I think that build could be made a little more interesting by taking advantage the blocking you can do and pushing that a little more. You can squeeze a little extra damage out of it with the might-on-block and retaliation traits, and you can make yourself just generally irritating to foes with the trifecta of interrupts in stun, daze, and fear from mace, shield, and shout.

The heal-allies-on-shout trait is pretty cool, so as long as you've invested so much to get it, you might as well stack your utilities with short-duration shouts and get some nice steady healing for your allies. AoE heal + AoE interrupt in one skill with the fear shout sounds like it could give your allies a fighting chance in a pinch.

The savage leap from sword should help you stay in melee range of enemies, but when you find yourself out of position, you might as well buff and cleanse (warhorn) your allies before leaping back into the fray.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fIQQ...jTGpMrNGbsVYiA

Really enjoying looking at all the classes, even those I have no interest in playing.
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